Consumers are cutting back and they've changed their spending behaviours and they're seeking more value. They're being a lot more discerning with their discretionary dollars.
In this episode, Amie is joined by David Martin, National Manager for Retail and E-Commerce at Commonwealth Bank to discuss their latest consumer insights report.
Consumers are cutting back and they've changed their spending behaviours and they're seeking more value. They're being a lot more discerning with their discretionary dollars.
In this episode, Amie is joined by David Martin, National Manager for Retail and E-Commerce at Commonwealth Bank to discuss their latest consumer insights report.
Intro:
Coming up on this episode of Retail Untangled.
David:
Consumers are cutting back and they've changed their spending behaviours and they're seeking more value. They're being a lot more discerning with their discretionary dollars. We value quality over quantity. When you look at all the generation breakdowns, digital experiences have a touchpoint for everyone.
Amie:
Welcome to Retail Untangled. My name is Amie Larter and this is the podcast where we speak to retail industry experts and find our business hacks that have helped them succeed. You won't find these gems anywhere else, and we have some superb stories from the coalface as well as helicopter insights from retail industry leaders. Today's guest is David Martin, a retail and e-commerce industry expert within business banking at CommBank. Prior to joining CommBank, David spent five years in the US and the world of e-commerce with two years at Amazon in Seattle, and most recently he led APAC for Flywheel Digital, the world's largest Amazon advertising and consultancy agency, working with clients like P&G, Bayer, SCJ, and Logitech. I've asked him to join us this episode to coincide with the launch of the latest consumer insights report. It's just landed and something I think is quite timely considering the wallet squeezing situation many Aussie households are facing with higher living costs. Our understanding of spending trends and plans perfectly matches with what the report uncovered. Lots of people are cinching up their spending. The Inside Retail team chats with retailers and providers every day and they're all saying the same thing. It's like a race for who can win over the consumer cash. Not only that, but people's shopping expectations are shifting as they adapt to what's happening right now. David, you've got such a unique perspective coming from retail and banking. Are the findings of this new report, are they what we'd expect? Give us your sort of 30 second top level.
David:
I think we've had this narrative in the media for a while now about the pressures and so far the data hasn't really reflected it, but lately it's turning. And I think this report really shows that cost of living and interest rates are hitting consumers hard and more than a quarter are telling us that they're doing it quite tough at the moment. And when we dig deeper, we see that there's this two speed retail landscape developing with a real clear difference in behaviour between those who say they're comfortable and those who say they're doing it tough. Irrespective of their financial situation, most consumers are cutting back and they've changed. They're spending behaviours and they're seeking more value. They're being a lot more discerning with their discretionary dollars. So clearly that cost of living pressure is hitting, consumers are shifting and reallocating money, which is probably no surprise in a tough time. And it's probably reflected in the bank's recent profit announcement where we highlighted that younger generations are holding more debt and reducing spending where older generations are holding greater deposits, getting a better return on their cash and living it up a little bit more in some cases.
Amie:
So, when it comes to consumer spending, how are consumers spending differently? Where are the trends? Where's it moving?
David:
It's all about reallocation. So we're finding that consumers are more discerning now and they're actively reallocating money. So on average, $450 a month is being shifted around towards essentials and across every generation it's a little bit different, but the youth Gen Y are shifting the most around and they're covering things like their mortgages, rent and childcare, and then Baby Boomers are shifting the least and they're doing that to pay bills to pay healthcare costs or savings, which is a very nice problem to have at the moment, I think. That behaviour is changing a lot in order to get more for the same or more for less. I think everyone wants to keep their standard of living, so they're just moving things around a bit and they're really shifting towards seeking deals and making lifestyle adjustments in order to maintain that standard of living. So the best example from the report is that around 25% of Gen Z respondents are saying that they're reallocating money to their 'fun' funds so that they can keep going out and having a good time instead of spending money. And that's a really interesting, I guess, social angle that people don't like missing out. They want to keep doing what they can and they'll sacrifice accordingly. But then consumers are also telling us that the behaviours they're adopting into the response to cost of living pressures are things that they're going to change to a long-term behavioural shift. So for retailers who are listening, those traffic and conversion drivers that they're pulling at the moment in order to maximise sales and increase their conversion and sales rates are likely going to be here for the long-term.
Amie:
According to your research, the common shopping habits most likely to continue are using promotional codes. So cashback offers and rewards to unlock value and spending more time researching before buying. Interestingly, turning to trusted brand is also expected to remain a priority for many consumers. Now that's interesting to me because if price is your top driver, then sometimes you think loyalty to a brand would subside. How's that working out?
David:
Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? And I think it's part of the Australian consumer mindset. I think we value quality over quantity quite a bit. And the best example in my years of travelling, when you go to America, you have breakfast at a cafe and you get this big plate of food for like 15 bucks and it's terrible, whereas you'll happily go pay $30 for breakfast at Bill's in Bondi or whatever, and that's the Australian retail mindset for mine. So clearly price isn't the only thing, and what the research is showing us is trust and transparency really is everything at the moment. Consumers are telling us that enhanced data security and controls to protect personal data are one of the most important factors in their overall customer experience. They're telling us that they want more transparency and control over how their personal data is used and stored.
85% said they wanted retailers to be more transparent about how that data is used and shared with other parties, which is really interesting. They know it's not just ending with that retailer now and then 82% want the ability to manage the personal data that the retailer has allows them. So changing the address, changing the date of birth or even deleting it, which I think is a big change in people's data habits because previously it was a bit of a black hole that you gave it to and then had no idea of, which is really interesting shift. And then when you zero in on that trust, I think that's where we're seeing that there is a real big shift in behaviour in the way that people are interacting and shopping as well. So 71% of consumers told us that the recent spade of high profile data breaches has made them rethink what data they share.
And then 64% have said that they will refuse to do business with retailers that collect unnecessary information. And I think everyone looks at their own personal experiences here. And I know for me, if I go to a cafe and I'm ordering a coffee and they want my address, date of birth, email address, I kind of question why and I'll stop the order at table process and go order from the counter. And I think that's a really interesting friction point that a lot of businesses add to their customers. So maybe rethinking the amount of information could be a really good way to create a better customer flow. So looping back to the question, there's a lot of factors that are coming into the consideration outside of just price. And that's exciting for retailers in my opinion because you've got more opportunities to differentiate as opposed to just playing the elasticity game.
Amie:
You've got people that are price conscious. You've also got people that are looking to trust brands, they're looking for personal data protection or whatever it might be, where in your opinion and through the research, where should you be weighting your efforts because they seem to be two sides to a coin.
David:
With that challenge you've got to balance up, there's an element of trust that you get from the partners you work with that we undervalue, our research showed that consumers when they're looking for trust and authenticity, look for other parties to provide it. So for example, if you're sort of questioning a website, you'll look at the reviews or you'll look at reviews on a Trustpilot or a Bizarre Voice and say, well, is this legitimate? And the other way that they say that they're doing it is through payment methods within inbuilt payment protection like a PayPal and saying, well, if I pay through that, I've got an inbuilt protection anyway. So there's a bit of insurance there. So that's a huge one. And then I think if you're a brand that isn't solely D2C focused, looking at the retailers that you are engaging with can be a really big part of it. We're all a lot more aware of marketplaces at the moment and consumers are looking to marketplaces to find product. So choosing the right marketplace can be a really good thing. Amazon is a trusted brand now that a lot of people have learned to deal with. So rethinking those ecosystems that you operate in can be a really good way forward
Amie:
If you are spending so much time looking for deals, bargains, whatever it might be. And then you're also considering trust in a retailer or a brand, you're spending a huge amount more time leading into that path to purchase because there's so much research that needs to be done. So if we start right at the beginning of the journey, and I think the great thing about the report that you guys have done is it's not just here's the information, but it's what retailers can do with it. Really practical insights into the way forward. If we start right at the beginning of the journey, consumers are spending obviously a lot more time in the research phase. So a brand's first impression is probably arguably as important as ever before. I know your research shows that on average consumers now turn to more than six channels with most using digital options including obviously retailers, websites, online reviews and marketplaces. What are some of the wins for retailers when it comes to nailing that first impression?
David:
Yeah, it is really amazing how broad we've become in how we find product. And yes, there are the tried and true methods, and I think the one that we probably all undersell is word of mouth and referrals. That's obviously really important. But the thing that a lot of retailers really need to understand is that it's a search first world. Our research and the sample of consumers that we spoke to told us that the number one source they go to first to find new products is search engines. They go to Google first and then they go to a brand's website. And that really highlights, I think at that phase in the journey how brand agnostic they are. They're just looking for a product that solves their need or problem as opposed to a brand that solves it. So I think for some retailers or brands, it's almost how do you get out of the way of yourself a little bit and understand at that point in time I need to be relevant at different places.
And the thing they need to understand or really double down on is their SEO and have a really great SEO strategy and then a paid advertising strategy to compliment that because obviously you can't win every organic search placement, but then making sure you're visible when the customer's searching for products that are related to your brand or your product. It's a typical Australian example that we go to real estate for an analogy, but I like to think of Google search, Amazon search as a real estate game, and you think about a keyword as a street and where you rank on that listing is your house on the street. And if you want the best house on the best street, sometimes you have to pay the most, and that's where shelling out the Google tax and paying for that first result, even if it is a lot when you're getting started, can pay dividends in the long run.
So that's a really big part. Then from there, it becomes a web of other places that people find product information. I think the key is knowing your customer and knowing what ecosystems they operate in and how they can overlap. I think these ecosystems, we think of the easy ones like social media and they're either a Facebook or an Instagram or a TikTok consumer depending on their age, but if you double down on it, it can be a shopping ecosystem like a marketplace or a Flybys programme that haven't used there. It can be a loyalty ecosystem. So there's a lot of ways to do it, and I think the challenge for brands is to almost step back from the assumptions you have about your customer and almost start from scratch and say, well, yes, we think we know who they are, but where they operate and how can we find the data that helps us do that?
I think one thing that banks have access to and CommBank is doing a good job of trying to share this where we can is sharing information about the purchasing data that consumers do through their credit cards and giving a insight to brands to see well, okay, what do I know or what are the demographics that come to us? So that's obviously really important, but then overlaying that with the data you have, that first party data about your customer can be a really good way to do it as well. And that's where I think our data showed a lot of value for brands to speak to certain demographics. Social media platforms ranked ninth overall on our list of information sources, but it was over-indexed for Gen Z and Gen Y consumers. So naturally, if you're a brand that's trying to speak to that demographic, looking for a way to connect with them on those channels is really important. And then I think concurrently, if you're someone who's looking to become more relevant with the future consumer because your current age profiles a little bit older, knowing where they are and saying, well, that's the path I need to get to, how do we create the content and the engagement strategy to be relevant? There is a really great way to find and increase awareness with your target consumer.
Amie:
There's obviously different channels for different demographics.
David:
Yeah, absolutely. There's clearly ways in which consumers shop differently. We definitely see a bigger engagement of shopping on platforms like TikTok and that whole TikTok made me buy it campaign, which I don't understand and I'm not that old. I might sound older on my voice, but it's clearly a certain shopper, whereas I'm probably more the typical Amazon marketplace or Google search into a brand experience. And then your older Australians are definitely more in-store first complimented by a digital experience. But the thing that we notice is that when you look at all the generation breakdowns, digital experiences have a touchpoint for everyone, even like pre boomers who you think might be a little bit too old for it, I guess they're more tech savvy than we give them credit for, and there's a lot more engagement there than we might think.
Amie:
When it comes to incentives and deals. I suppose at a time like this, they're a little bit of a game changer. Can you break down what is working, what you're saying works and what doesn't? I'm really interested in the doesn't.
David:
It was fascinating, fascinating research. We essentially asked our sample set to stack rank what they value and what they don't. And essentially what we're seeing is that not all incentives are the same and not all are valued by a consumer. So on top probably unsurprisingly was free shipping. I think that's now almost table stakes for anyone with a digital presence, but 68% of our samples said that that was their- in their top three and 37%, it was their first preference. So figuring out how to make the economics work for free shipping over the lifetime value of the customer clearly is quite important for a retailer. But those were closely followed by a couple of other surprising ones. Discount codes and promo codes were second at 60%, so right up there and then a rewards points program rounded out the top three at 52%. So they're not new things by any stretch of the imagination, but they're still highly valued.
I think the challenge becomes, especially for rewards points, well what do you do with them and how do you make it a little bit more of an ecosystem? And we're seeing a bit of that with Woolworth's Everyday Rewards being expanded out in that WPA programme. And then the same thing with Flybuys. So clearly brands are starting to wake up to that fact, but they're still not that universal loyalty program yet. So for your credit card issuer, what opportunities are there as well? At the other end of the spectrum, donations to charity was really the big loser, and I think we all think we're a little bit more altruistic than we might be, but 85% of people ranked that as their bottom three choice and 55% ranked at last. So if you're a brand that's looking at saying, Hey, we're going to make you feel good by doing something good on your behalf, maybe rethink that or rethink it as a huge volume driver. It might be nice for some, but not for everyone. Another surprising one was that people didn't really value free invites to special events that was ranked second last with 83% having in their bottom three and then a free gift with purchase rounded it out at 48%.
Amie:
It sort of makes sense though when you think about the three, the top three very much lean towards a saving for you personally, the bottom three...
David:
It's passing it on to someone else.
Amie:
It's passing it on to someone else, and I suppose you've got the pinch, the dollar pinch, it makes sense, right?
David:
Yeah, it does. And I think the gift with purchase as well is never something that you would've bought anyway, so maybe there's?
Amie:
It's a rare day.
David:
Opportunity to, it's a rare day. I did get one once and it's a shameless plug for, but I was at Dusk and they were offering this laser candle lighter and it just blew my mind and it's awesome. It sits and lights my gas up all time.
Amie:
And here we are still talking about it today.
David:
Nothing bad gifts. So there is clearly ones that work, but I don't think it's all of them, which is interesting. The one word of caution that I'd give is, again, you really need to know your customer and the demographics have slightly different skews on each incentive, which was again, another really interesting insight that there's, and it's a challenge for retailers, so I apologise retailers listening, there's no easy way to win, but it's one of those things where in order to speak to every customer, you have to speak their language. And a lot of the times it's different. So for example, 54% of Gen Y respondents wanted a free gift with purchase, but the next highest was Gen X at 40. So there's a big gap there. And then pre boomers, which is the oldest Australians, they love cashback offers the most, but surprisingly only 28% of Gen Y saw that as appealing. So the full chart is in the report, and I do encourage people to have a look at it because you can really zero in on where there are gaps on incentives and where there are things that people really value.
Amie:
In these tougher times when customers are all about their wallets. How can retailers keep loyalty alive? I mean that you've got the deals, but what else are you seeing in terms of loyalty?
David:
Yeah, that's obviously the big challenge. And I think the basics first is the easy answer, but it's always pretty accurate and relevant. The best retailers do the basics the best, and that's something that I think people listening probably get sick of hearing. We all know that the retail landscape has been really difficult over the last little bit and there's been a lot of things impacting it, whether it's supply chain issues, staffing issues, all those things. And for the most part, the sector's done a pretty good job of keeping the plates spinning while those challenges have been going on, but the challenging part is that they are being felt by the consumer. 65% of people told us they've experienced issues with retail providers over the past year, and most of those were to do stock levels. About a half of people experienced issues with inventory, 28% had issues with pricing and payment, and then 26% had issues with customer service.
So all things that are part or integral to the retail experience. But the interesting thing and the thing that loops back to loyalty is that some are forgivable and others kill loyalty, and that was really fascinating to see. So overall, 58% of people said that they're unlikely to continue to use a retailer that they've had issues occur at, that's as high as 69% in personal services. So clearly if you get a bad haircut, you're not going back, but it's as low as 45% for a hardware store, which is probably more the non-discretionary part. So there is that element to it. But the trick is clearly knowing what issues customers forgive and what they see as high impact issues. So for the listeners, the three biggest loyalty killers we found were difficulty returning items, inaccurate product information online, and a poor website or app experience. Customers told us they would be highly unlikely to return to a brand if they experienced these issues.
So there's something for free everyone focus on those things and you've got a chance to keep customers returning back. But the thing that I think was interesting and probably something that we overstress on a little bit maybe is that high frequency items like stock availability were much lower impact issues with only 8% of people saying that that would make them never return to a retailer. That's clearly people understanding that, okay, they're not always going to be able to get what they want, but knowing the information of the product online before I go into the store is clearly really important and must win factor. Another theme that came out in the research is how important choice at checkout is given the broad range of payment methods consumers are using at the moment and that they like to use. And I think the challenge for retailers now is you've got to offer the individual customer their preferred payment method, and that's now table stakes. So cards are still king, but using them in conjunction with promo codes and loyalty points is an in-demand feature and a trend that's emerging. And then you've got to find ways to do that in store and online and kind of have that consistent experience and approach.
Amie:
And how are retailers fairing in terms of this checkout experience?
David:
The research had some data points on the things that people want to use, and all in all, there's not many payment methods that are like, oh, I can never find that anywhere. So that's really positive. I think the challenge for retailers is how do you do it at scale? And obviously technological investment's quite expensive whenever you're talking about changing a checkout or even merchant terminals at the store. So finding partners who can help unlock scale is a really important thing. I'm not going to try to do a product push, but CommBank is working on some stuff there that we can talk about a bit later to help with that payment orchestration process and unlocking scale for retailers when it comes to payment methods. But I think that's the mindset you've got to think about, don't think one-to-one to connection, think one-to-many and try and find partners who can open as many doors as possible to you as opposed to the person you've always been dealing with or the way you've always been doing it.
Amie:
You've got a lot of quite key findings. What are the top practical tips for retailers coming out of the report?
David:
The top ones are knowing your customer and knowing the things that they value above all else. So we kind of touched on it, but if you are targeting a younger generation, knowing how to talk to them and knowing what incentives they value is key. And if you mismatch there, you've probably got to go back to the drawing board and rethink things. I think then looking at those basics and the loyalty killers, that was the one for me that really jumped out at me. There's almost a matrix there where you can go, okay, there's a quadrant that I want to stay clear of and if I can solve those problems, I'm going to keep customers coming back. And then there's an area where I can have a bit more forgiveness. I still want to solve that problem, but I'm not going to lose too much sleep if I don't.
So understanding relative to your category where those loyalty killers sit is crucial in a time where we're all struggling to find incremental customers, that's obviously a really big part of winning and I think it's going to be a challenge for the next 12 months. There's so much going on at the macroeconomic level that the next 12 months is going to be fascinating and the really good retailers are going to win a lot and we might see a little bit more pressure that we've seen over the last little bit post Covid, but that is the hangover of a period of time where no one could travel. We had a lot more disposable income. And that's now correcting.
Amie:
What do you think the next 12 to 24 months looks like in retail having done this quite deep research?
David:
Is not the bank's opinion, but I think there's going to be a lot of pressure on the consumer and interest rates are still hitting and flowing through, which is a challenge. They're going to remain comparably high through the end of this year and into next year, and we're going to have to adjust to that new normal. In terms of pricing, I'm an optimist and I'm hopeful that petrol prices come down, but that might be unlikely. I think that might be a new flaw as opposed to a shift backwards. And that's probably going to be the same for things like utilities and insurance and things like that. So clearly this reallocation that consumers are doing will continue for a period of time and there's going to be some brands that will play with price in order to spur elasticity of demand and that's going to impact margins. So this time next year at the reporting season, I think it's going to be a little bit different again, but I think it's going to be a really interesting case study to sit back and watch what are the things that people are doing outside of price as we kind of touched on, to add value to that customer because we can all drop our pants on price and we'll have a sugar hit, but then we've got to chase that the following year.
And in my time at Amazon every year at Prime Day, we talk about the comp of the previous year, and it almost becomes a drug that you're chasing. You are like, oh, how much did we do last year? Great, we've got to do 10% more. And trying to find ways to decouple that will be really interesting. So I'm encouraged by that. I think there's going to be a continued strong investment in digital channels. The pandemic delivered a step change in the importance of e-commerce, and while it's not at the pandemic peak, it's still really important. So solving that omnichannel challenge will be really interesting, and I think that's where many retailers are going to increase their search and focus on true omnichannel commerce and find partners who can provide and unlock that sort of white whale supported by our research, the number one technology consumers that find useful when researching a product is the online experience showing what stocks available in store.
So clearly consumers want that and brands need to understand that's not going away and almost find a way to look at things holistically and not get caught up on, oh, that was an e-com sale and that was an in-store sale. It's just commerce guys, it's retail. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's not e-commerce, it's just commerce. So that's a big one. And then that leads into the payment method piece and probably why the bank's investing what we are in digital payment experiences because there's continued focus on that checkout experience and the payment experience, and it's got to be fast, it's got to be reducing friction, and everyone's trying to do one click payments and all that sort of stuff. They know that if you can do that, you almost take a step out of the consumer's consideration set so they don't say, actually, do I need this?
So that's going to be really important. You need to find scalable ways to give the consumer their preferred way to pay. That's what our Powerboard product does, and I think there's going to be a lot more push in that space from digital payment providers. And then finally, I think the watch is on AI and how retailers use that to add value. It's the buzzword at every conference you go to. There was an Online Retailer, it was a really big, big theme, but clearly there's operational efficiencies here in creating content and creating curation of things. And that's one part of it, which is great. And that will help in a time where maybe margins are under pressure, we can reallocate resources, but the one I'm most excited about is how contextual search plays a part and helps consumers find products to discover, and then how brands leverage that. And the example that blows my mind, and I can't wait until we're at this place, but when Google or your search engine knows what you have in your wardrobe and you say, Hey, I've got an event on tonight, I want to wear this suit, find me a pair of shoes that go with it. And then you get all this stuff relative to you.
Amie:
The options.
David:
And you're just like, okay, well now I've almost got a personalised shopping assistant and that blows my mind. That would be so cool because.
Amie:
Would save me a lot of time.
David:
There's so many applications, there's your car parts, there's your home theatre system, there's all those things, and that's really cool.
Amie:
Price is here to stay. So right now, whilst you do have to be competitive with price, it's where you are value adding around that that's really important.
David:
Holistically, how can you find ways to give the customer something else that's not you giving away margin and that connection with the brand. And I think that the interesting piece, and it kind of goes back to one of the points at the start, the luxury sector at the moment's never been better because yes, we have a- from my experience and what I see now, there might be luxury retailers are doing it tough, but there's people who are flush with cash, they've got a lot of savings, they get a better return on that cash, and they're saying, well, okay, I want to buy a watch or a car or whatever. But there's also the inbound tourism, there's inbound migration, there's all those things, and you don't see the luxury sector discounting. So they're clearly finding other ways to create value. Now, a lot of that value is in the brand and what it says about you, and you become a billboard for Louis Vuitton or IWC or Rolex or whatever.
But there's got to be other ways and there's got to be other things that they're doing. And I think the one that I don't believe or understand why it's a thing, but Hermes and their bag launches and how you can only get access to this bag if you spend a certain amount on other purses. It's like as a man, I'm like, I don't understand that, but clearly it's working, right, because that's the most sought after item in many people's closets. So that'd be the mindset, I think. How do you find ways to make people want to keep coming back?
Amie:
We've got the launch of the nominations for the Retailer Awards coming up soon, and I'm really interested to get your insight in the last couple of years, and obviously we've worked with CommBank on this for quite a few years now during the pandemic, very much focused on that digital strategy. Rightfully so. We weren't in store and we saw last year a little bit of a shift back to physical and those types of experiences. What do you reckon is going to be on the cards this year in terms of customer experience when you've got this tough environment happening?
David:
Yeah, I think there'll be almost two speeds. Again, there'll be nominations that are very focused on value and giving consumers more value and finding ways to make them feel more valued. And that's really, really important. But then I think there'll also be nominations that are focused around the additional problems that they're solving. And I think the big one's going to be the omni-channel focus and experience. It's a trending quick service retail at the moment and how every fast food joint's developing an app and creating an interface there. And I think that type of experience will continue to flow. I think this would be amazing if I'm on my way, this is giving probably a little bit more insight into my weekends and personality, but if I'm on my way to the golf course and I don't have any golf balls, can I go to the drum and golf app, say, I'm going to be there in 10 minutes and I want these balls and I'll pick 'em up on the way.
I think consumers are understanding that those experiences are possible now, and they're almost disappointed when they can't do it. And the one that I keep seeing is the changing demands and timelines for click and collect. There was a presentation I gave recently where I won't mention the bad actor, but the good player. I think the bad actor had an eight hour click and collect window and the good player had a one hour. And the example is, well, if they're the same product, who are you going to go with? Clearly one hour. So that's a new benchmark and that's going to get shorter and shorter and shorter to the point where it's 15 minutes or so. So that's really cool. So we'll see.
Amie:
It's going to be exciting.
David:
Absolutely.
Amie:
A big thanks to David Martin from CommBank. The CommBank Consumer Insights report is available now, and I'll put a link to the report in the show notes. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure you subscribe using your favourite podcast app and don't forget to rate and review the podcast. In our next episode, we speak to Karlie Taylor, marketing manager at Shopline who's going to unpack AI and retail.
Outro:
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